tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post167906074252721285..comments2023-09-28T00:21:42.416-07:00Comments on Tempest's Teapot: It's dark in the desert (part 2)Tempesthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15552450426383952631noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-71360934296983545482011-03-24T10:38:48.047-07:002011-03-24T10:38:48.047-07:00My previous comment may need some amending. After ...My previous comment may need some amending. After writing it I really began to think about the full implications of what I had stated, and I realized that although I do have a good knowledge of ancient Egyptian (Kemetic) culture, I'm not as familiar with its history after the last Ptolemaic ruler died and it became part of Rome. <br /><br />As a Pagan, I'm aware of many myths, pseudo-histories, and actual academic information surrounding the idea of Pagan survivals in Europe after the arrival of Christianity. After doing a lot of reading (especially Hutton's Triumph of the Moon) I had come to the conclusion that very little remained of original Pagan culture after monotheism took hold, and I extremely doubted that any direct, unchanged stream of thought and practice would be able to survive from pre-Christianity to modern times. However, my ideas have changed somewhat since then and I now have a more open approach to Pagan survivals, although I still do not think that an entire cult could survive unaltered through direct transmission from initiate to initiate all these centuries as is still sometimes claimed by certain people. <br /><br />Considering this, I realized that it would be inconsistent for me to accept the potential for certain pre-Christian (and pre-Islamic) survivals in Europe and not accept the same possibility for Egypt. Although Wikipedia is not a definitive source (I still need to do further research), the article on Egyptian identity suggests that there were still some followers of the indigenous religion after Christianity became the majority faith and there may still have been some after Islam's arrival. <br /><br />Just as in Europe the new faiths were slower to take hold in rural areas and it is possible that some aspects of ancient Egyptian culture survived among the fellahin. Although the traditional Kemetic religion and language for the most part seem to have been lost in its homeland, it may be more likely that some cultural aspects like music and dance survived, at least in part. As bellydance is ultimately based in folk dances of the Middle East, including the beledi of the Egyptians, there is a small chance that some movements were passed down from late antiquity. The issue is that it would be extremely difficult to prove what may or may not be a survival as ancient peoples did not have video or audio recording capabilities and as far as I'm aware there are no surviving dance manuals from pharaonic Egypt. <br /><br />I would still stand by my previous statement about there not being a direct link between ancient Egypt and Arabic culture, namely because as I mentioned before the Arabic influence is rather late in Egypt's history, but also because they are historically separate cultures, and as I just discovered, many contemporary Egyptians do not even self-identify as Arab. However, there may be a minor chance that aspects of ancient Egyptian culture survived into modern Egyptian culture and perhaps disseminated from modern Egypt to other regions in the Middle East.<br /><br />My personal opinion at this point though (again, I admit I need to research this more) is that bellydance is probably a component of Arabic culture rather than of ancient Egyptian extraction, even though I acknowledge the possibility of some survivals from pharaonic times. The regions where what is recognized and described as bellydance originate are all either Arabic or strongly influenced by Arabic culture. This sphere of influence includes places like Turkey, the Mahreb, of which Egypt is a part, and to some extent Iran even though those people are not ethnically Arab. It seems to me that bellydance is a form of expression that they brought with them (if perhaps unintentionally) when they traveled throughout the Mediterranean and northern Africa. According to Morocco (the dancer, not the country), flamenco developed in Spain as a direct result of the influence of Arabic dance in that country, so Arabs were evidently bringing their dances with them.Desiréehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09274350019346059881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-8154585207454410112011-03-04T22:10:50.285-08:002011-03-04T22:10:50.285-08:00I'm very happy that you've challenged the ...I'm very happy that you've challenged the shallow idea that all Middle Eastern dance and music is inherently joyful and happy and cannot be used as a vehicle to express "dark" emotions, ideas, etc. <br /><br />However, there is a note I would like to make regarding your linkage of Arabic culture and ancient Egypt. Contemporary Egypt is very different from ancient Egypt and I do not believe a direct line between the two can accurately be drawn. Islamic Arabs invaded and conquered Egypt relatively recently (in view of Egypt's very long history) and by the time they arrived Egypt had already been under foreign rulership for hundreds of years. The polytheistic Greeks and Romans were at least interested in preserving some aspects of Kemetic culture, but after the Roman Empire and thus Egypt became Christian this was not so much the case. Arab culture, religion, and language supplanted what very little may have remained of Egypt's traditional culture after Christianity arrived. (As an example, the knowledge of how to read and write the ancient Egyptian language was only deciphered in 1822 after a thousand years of being forgotten. It was largely deciphered with the aid of Champollion's knowledge of Coptic, the language of Egyptian Christians who were native to the country before the arrival of the Arabs. Even now though Coptic is basically just litugical language used within the church - Arabic has replaced it as the common spoken language.) Thankfully contemporary Egyptians are now very proud of the ancient heritage and seek to preserve its remaining monuments and artifacts, but I think any link one could draw between rather modern bellydance, including even Egyptian Raks Sharqi, and ancient Egyptian culture is very tenuous at best. I apologize for rambling on the subject, but it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.Desiréehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09274350019346059881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-82115441665521163312010-12-29T20:51:14.641-08:002010-12-29T20:51:14.641-08:00I just find it kind of strange and annoying that w...I just find it kind of strange and annoying that we still feel that we have to justify gothiness in general...it's a bit long in the tooth at this point!<br /><br />I think people like to complain about fusion of nearly anything and bellydance. Which is sort of funny, because bellydance forms are all fusions in themselves.IrinaXarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177089762702224325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-15756382617100670722010-12-29T15:12:41.629-08:002010-12-29T15:12:41.629-08:00Well said!:)Well said!:)kali_licioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11046557889685962719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-73505556506621916382010-12-29T14:06:37.671-08:002010-12-29T14:06:37.671-08:00WOW! LOVE!!WOW! LOVE!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-6349350491530505812010-12-29T09:57:06.172-08:002010-12-29T09:57:06.172-08:00Amen!Amen!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7797722657144934304.post-64302404015339011072010-12-29T09:30:22.240-08:002010-12-29T09:30:22.240-08:00Thank you for that excellent post, esp. the next t...Thank you for that excellent post, esp. the next to last paragraph!Gnomebodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04932192501631571182noreply@blogger.com